Asked by ->Peter 26 months ago

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This quote is from Presidential candidate Mitt Romney's speech addressing his own faith today. What do you think of it? Is it true that freedom requires religion? And that religion requires freedom?

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"Consider the Source"

 by JBENZ on Dec 06 2007 (26 months ago)
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Mitt's got a real problem. He can't get the nomination if the Protestant Christian Fundies and other evangelicals don't support him and they think Mormonism is a weird cult. So he's desperately trying to convince them that he's one of them and will support their political agenda. (Unlike Jack Kennedy who basically said that his religion was personal and not relevant to how he would act as President.)  Problem is that he has flip flopped on so many of the issues that they get hysterical about (abortion, gay marriage, etc.) that they trust him about as far as they can throw him.  They may be nutz on matters theological but they aren't stupid and they know when somebody is blowing smoke up their tabernacles.

Mitt's half right: Religion requires freedom. Without religious freedom the majority (or the most powerful sect) invariably tries to suppress everybody else's belief and establish theirs as the "official" religion. This plays well with the Fundies who are utterly convinced that they are an oppressed minority and who define "religious freedom" as their freedom to force their beliefs on everybody else by incorporating them into the civil and criminal law and the public education system.

And he's half wrong: Freedom does not require religion. That's the same hype that Joe Lieberman used to spout when he was trying to get the Fundy vote: "Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from religion." It plays well with people who can't distinguish between patriotism and theology. Mitt's telling the Fundies what they want to hear: That the government should be religious and that people can't be free without submitting to some sort of religiously motivated and controlled government. (Anybody wanna hazard a guess as to who they think will be doing the motivating and controlling?) That's utter rubbish, of course, but good politics, for him.

Mitt's real problem is that the Fundies are terrified that the Mormons will take over the government and that their political influence will be cut back. That won't happen but logic is not their strong point. If Huckabee does well in Iowa and New Hampshire, the Fundies will turn to him in droves and Mitt is in big trouble. He'll have to move back to Massachusetts and re-re-convert to Liberalism or maybe even be forced to find honest work.
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"Yes, I would say it is true, but I would prefer to say freedom requires God ..."

 by Christian on Dec 07 2007 (26 months ago)
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The reason being we claim to have certain unalienable RIGHTS, they are UNALIENABLE because we say they are given to us by our Creator, they are not given by other humans, but are ours as gifts from God.

 

If they were granted by humans, humans could take them away, tax us for them, etc... but since these rights / freedoms are given by God they are not to be messed with by men, they are considered sacred, untouchable, unchangeable.  When God is taken out of the picture the unalienable nature of these rights is lost.

 

Second, religion requires freedom means each person should worship (or not worship) according to his or her true convictions.  This is important because true religion cannot be forced by the government.  Religion is a matter of the heart. 

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"no and yes"

 by drifter on Dec 11 2007 (26 months ago)
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I don't think that freedom necessarily requires religion, but I do believe that religion requires freedom. The freedom of choice as long as it harms nobody else...
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"This is patently false, and useful only as an example of political doublespeak."

 by toganet on Dec 06 2007 (26 months ago)
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"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom"

False.

Religion is always about limiting freedom, rather than permitting it.  Christianity has two commandments that guide (read: limit) one's actions, Islam has five pillars that must be obeyed.  Compared to Judaism's Ten Commandments, the short lists may seem permissive.  Buddhists forswear violence; Hindus beef.  Does any of this sound "Free"?

The purpose of religion is to draw lines around acceptable behavior in a society, not to open the doors to true liberty.  Religion is about control.

To be fair, the behavioral limitations imposed by religion relieve the individual of much of the work of deciding what to do when presented with many choices.  This relief may be experienced as a feeling of relative freedom, compared to the often gut-wrenching choices faced by free thinking individuals.
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"This is what most would call a PARADOX"

 by Cuchulain on Dec 06 2007 (26 months ago)
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Romney is clever, but aren't most politicians?

 

This is what most would call a PARADOX, a statement or proposition that seems self-contradictory or absurd but in reality expresses a possible truth.

 

"Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." Mitt Romney 

In the spirit of democracy but within a politically correct society there are just way too many toes that can get stepped on, and Romney is being questioned quite a bit lately about being a Mormon.  John F. Kennedy, I believe, is the only U.S. President to not be of the Protestant faith.  He was a Catholic.  So Romney has taken what I like to call a juxtaposition to the question.

 

The United States of America is not an atheist or agnostic society.  And it is not a Buddhist, Islamic, or even Christian society.

 

It is an amalgam of all belief systems.  Without that - we might see the Inquisition  of Bonfire of the Vanities all over again.

 

Many Christians believe the Bible affirms Predestination and denies Free Will / Freedom, so really... looking at Romney's statement from this standpoint and from the standpoint of a separation of church and state, it's all a bunch of typical Political nonsense that not even Romney himself can understand or intelligently defend.

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guybee, your conclusions in comment three are based on false logic.
You said, "Freedom does require religion. How else will people be kind, tolerant, compassionate, caring and willing to work for the common good." This is based on the false assumption that these traits cannot be taught outside of a religious context.

You said, "If you look at the history books, all you have to do is remember the communist countries that outlawed religion to see there was no freedom." This is a false presumption. Just because communist countries outlawed religion and were repressive, does not mean that ANY country that "outlawed" religion would be repressive. There are plenty of examples of repressive countries where religion is not outlawed.

You said, "Show me one civilization that survived without religion." This is a self-serving request because the fact is that "religion" has been around as long as humanity. Plus, the fact is that the vast majority of the civilizations that have fallen on the trash-heap of history HAD a religion (or several).

As for your definition of a cult (in #4), you must have a different dictionary that I do. I'm not well versed enough in Mormonism to comment on it directly, but the definition you cite seems to me more a question of theology - you think Jesus was this, they think Jesus was that. The fact is that you have no more evidence for your opinion than they do. And that's perfectly fine - it's what faith is all about. But it hardly constitutes the definition of "cult".

As for #5, I think you miss the point. The laws that society "imposes" on me are rules I have agreed to as a member of that society. I may have voted on several of them, or had a hand in crafting them. I know the full facts of their origin, and purpose, and I can act within the system to change them if I want. This is part of the definition of freedom. On the other hand, the laws imposed on me by a religion (any religion), don't share any of these characteristics. Well, that's not totally true - I can choose not to follow those rules and seek out another religion. But those rules have some mysterious otherworldly origin that I was not involved in, had no say in, and really can't know for sure what the source it (again this is where faith comes in). I also cannot change them. Now I still have the freedom to choose another faith, but if I've been raised as a child to believe that doing so will provoke the anger of an almighty being who will cast me into a pit to endure eternal suffering for making that choice, do I really have a choice? I totally agree with you that true freedom requires laws, it's the nature of those laws that we disagree on.

As for #6, I wish people would stop this propaganda that the U.S. was formed as a Christian nation. It's so patently untrue that I get tired of addressing it. It is absolutely true that many of the Founding Fathers were devout Christians. It's also true that a significant number of their leaders weren't. They were Deists. It would be more correct to say that the Founders thought the nation needed G-d's blessing to succeed. If it had been founded as a Christian nation, the Bible would have been the law of the land, and Christianity would have been established as the state religion.

And perhaps you can answer a Garden of Eden question for me, since you mentioned it. Where in the OT does it say that the serpent was Satan? I've got a KJV Bible, and it's not mentioned anywhere. And how did the serpent twist the truth? It said, "Ye shall not surely die, For G-d doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4-5. Isn't that exactly what happened. They didn't die. G-d did know that they ate thereof. They did acquire the knowledge of good and evil. How was the truth twisted? Didn't they just choose to disobey G-d's command like a child disobeying a parent?

Please don't take all this the wrong way. Except for that last part, I do not mean this to be an indictment of Christianity. I am only attempting to point out that your statements are based on your faith and opinions. There's nothing wrong with that, but those two things don't make them absolute truths. And, as for the last part, I have been asking those questions for over 20 years and haven't gotten a satisfactory answer yet. Lots of dogma, but no answer. Overall I agree that religion gets twisted and lied about by unscrupulous people. But it's the very fact that we can't rely on everyone to live the way Jesus directed that makes it dangerous. Religion (not just Christianity) has been a big a cause of war throughout history as anything else (maybe moreso). Does that make it bad? Certainly not. But is does point out that it's as big an obstacle to freedom as it may be a facilitator.
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